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Obama Addresses George Zimmerman Verdict

Here's the transcript of President Obama's remarks on the George Zimmerman verdict today.

Here's what I agree with:

The judge conducted the trial in a professional manner. The prosecution and the defense made their arguments. The juries were properly instructed that in a case such as this reasonable doubt was relevant, and they rendered a verdict. And once the jury has spoken, that's how our system works.

The rest of his remarks, on the topic of race, would be welcome following an incident involving racial profiling by police. In case he hasn't noticed, the practice is rampant in New York City. They do not fit in the context of this case. [More...]

He has now gone from Trayvon Martin could have been his son to Trayvon Martin could have been him 35 years ago.

The most objectionable part of his comments: Not once did he express any empathy for George Zimmerman, the man who was acquitted who spent the past 16 months under the cloud of criminal charges, and who continues to have a target on his back.

Obama said if Martin had been white the result would probably have been different. Not once did he acknowledge that if Trayvon Martin had not attacked George Zimmerman, the outcome might have been different.

As a former Constitutional law professor, I would expect our President to acknowledge that the purpose of a criminal trial is not to send messages to the American public. It is merely to test the Government's evidence: Did the state prove guilt and disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

By the President comparing himself to Martin 35 years ago, is he saying he would have responded as Martin did, and physically attacked someone for following him? I hope not because our laws do not allow such conduct. It is not illegal for a private citizen to follow someone. It is illegal to physically assault another person who has not threatened him with the imminent use of force.

I am very disappointed that the President has chosen to endorse those who have turned a case of assault and self-defense into a referendum on race and civil rights. And that he is using it to support those with an agenda of restricting gun rights.

The President, like so many others, refuses to acknowledge that George Zimmerman had no avenue of retreat from the beating Martin was inflicting on him. Zimmerman would have prevailed on self-defense without a stand your ground law. The only additional element a stand your ground law adds to traditional self-defense is the elimination of a duty to retreat if one is available.

Florida Gov. Rick Scott says there will be no change to Florida's Stand Your Ground law. I hope he's right. The law does not need to be changed. People have a right to defend themselves from attacks like the one Martin initiated against Zimmerman. They should not have to wait until the next blow, which could be a fatal one.

Trayvon Martin was not an unarmed teen just walking home with Skittles. The evidence at trial showed he had enough time to go home and did not. Instead, he chose to confront and physically attack Zimmerman. He may have started his walk home from 7-11 as an innocent unarmed teen with a bag of Skittles, but along the way he used his hands and the cement as weapons.

The jury's verdict is the best evidence that not a single one of them believed Martin was the one screaming for help. Angela Corey said this week the state has never denied Trayvon Martin hit George Zimmerman. The state argued Zimmerman's injuries weren't serious enough to warrant shooting Martin. There was expert testimony at trial that Zimmerman had no other means to escape the danger he perceived he was in, and that his perception of that danger was reasonable. The jury sided with the defense.

The state tried to cast Zimmerman as the aggressor who provoked the fight, and the judge correctly ruled the jury would not be so instructed. There was no evidence to support that Zimmerman provoked Martin's use of force against him. There was no evidence that Zimmerman tried to physically restrain Martin.

Whether you are 17 or 28 or 52, you have the right to resist a beating. It's time to recognize this case for what it was: an unfortunate encounter between two people, each of whom found the others actions suspicious. One had the opportunity to leave and continue on his way home. Instead of availing himself of that opportunity, he chose to assault the other person. Wrong option.

Whether Martin was black, white or purple was not a factor at the time of the shooting. Zimmerman's will to live without permanent brain damage was entirely reasonable. Stand your ground or no stand your ground, self-defense is judged by the circumstances that existed at the time deadly force was used.

The actions of Zimmerman before Martin's attack was an issue only for the determination of ill-will, hatred, spite or evil intent, as contained in the Murder 2 statute. Once the jury rejected the state's argument on murder 2, the series of acts leading up the non-physical encounter are irrelevant. What matters is Zimmerman's belief at the time he responded to Martin's use of force. Was his belief reasonable that the use of deadly force was necessary to prevent imminent great bodily harm to himself. The jury said yes. Race has nothing to do with it.

It is unfortunate that Trayvon Martin lost his life, but he was wrong to use his fist and the cement as a weapon and attack George Zimmerman. Changing the law is not an appropriate response when the state failed to prove Zimmerman had an alternate means to extricate himself from the danger. Suggesting that someone being beaten should wait for a fatal or near-fatal blow before defending himself makes no sense.

The police investigation in this case was not deficient. They interviewed witnesses, some more than once and canvassed the neighborhood for more witnesses. They interviewed Zimmerman without a lawyer several times and had him reinact the encounter with Martin and the shooting. They conducted a voice stress test which Zimmerman passed (and was not admitted into evidence, which was the correct ruling.) They obtained phone records and examined Zimmerman's phone, downloading texts and photos. They got court orders to examine Martin's phone when his parents and lawyers were unable or unwilling to provide a passcode. They collected physical evidence and sent it for testing. They obtained videos of neighboring businesses. The only deficiency was in the preservation of evidence on Martin's body and clothing, and more mistakes were made at the Medical Examiner's office than by the police at the scene.

The evidence obtained from the investigation would be no greater if the FDLE and state's attorney's office had the case from Day 1 -- unless they were willing to manufacture it. Even Angela Corey said it would be wrong to charge someone before the investigation is complete, and that would take at least 4 to 6 weeks in a case like this. Calls for Zimmerman's arrest were premature. And as evident from the family's most recent statements, they would not have been satisfied with just an arrest. Only a conviction would have been acceptable to them.

Police are supposed to impartially follow the facts and then develop a theory. It's inappropriate to develop a theory and then try and force the facts to fit a preconceived theory. Surely we learned something from the travesty of doing it backwards as was done in the case of JonBenet Ramsey. Her parents were vilified for years because the police were hellbent on finding facts to fit their theory of guilt instead of following the facts and evidence to see where they led.

If the public wants change, a good starting point would be opposition to Neighborhood Watch programs that encourage people to report behavior that isn't criminal but merely suspicious. Ending police endorsement of such programs might make a difference.

I am all for protesting the racial disparity in our criminal justice system. But put the focus where it belongs: On arbitrary and unfair laws that disproportionately affect minorities, police misconduct, too much discretion vested in prosecutors, and overly harsh sentencing laws and guidelines. Leave George Zimmerman out of it.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Making it political (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by PM on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 03:19:59 PM EST
    I wonder how it feels to be GZ and have the full weight of the federal government after you.

    POTUS definitely decided to go with the Crump PR of the "unarmed child walking home with his Skittles" completely ignoring the evidence in the case of TM's own actions, as well as his parent's continued denial of taking responsibility for their part in what happened that night.

    So much for "respect the Judicial system"

    He should have referred to it as a local (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by melamineinNY on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:59:17 PM EST
    matter being handled by the Justice Dept. and moved on to matters of State. I know that's asking for too much.

    Parent
    When your base (3.75 / 4) (#20)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:28:31 PM EST
    .

    When your base includes a lot of low information voters and people that think the country is chock full of white bigots responsible for most murdered black folk, then his comments are just good racial politics.

    If he wanted to be a healer rather than a divider, he could have said that at one time in Florida a mixed race defendant like Zimmerman facing a nearly all white jury would have been discriminated against, but this verdict shows things are changing for the better.

    Pretty shameful of the O.
    .

    Parent

    "Low information voters"? (3.67 / 3) (#56)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:26:45 PM EST
    Did Romney or Rush give a speech?

    Parent
    Conservatives really (none / 0) (#58)
    by MKS on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:28:04 PM EST
    belief this....stuff.  Hence, Romney's 47% talk.

    Parent
    Small Disagreement (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by RickyJim on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 03:50:05 PM EST
    The evidence obtained from the investigation would be no greater if the FDLE and state's attorney's office had the case from Day 1 -- unless they were willing to manufacture it.
    I think that if a good investigator had interviewed Rachel Jeantel within a day or two of the incident, some things would have been much clearer. FDLE certainly has good ones like John Batchelor.

    no one knew abut Rachel Jeantel until (none / 0) (#180)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:58:44 PM EST
    March 18 when Tracy Martin found her number in his phone records. She had a prepaid cell phone and the records do not contain a name. The were unable to access the phone. His lawyers did not tell law enforcement about her -- they learned it at the press conference and FDLE was already in the process of taking over.

    Sanford Police Officer (Santiago)  had Agent Shor of the CCIB respond to the scene the night of the shooting with a cellebrite device to download the info from Martin's phone. He couldn't get into it because the battery was inoperable, either from being too wet or too low. See page 16 of the first discovery (183 pp total.)

    Parent

    I wonder if the President realizes (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 03:52:03 PM EST
    that just about every every ethnicity has had employees follow them around stores, etc. I do not dispute that in general I would expect blacks to have more of those experiences than whites.

    And I find his "SYG" scenarios disappointingly disingenuous, in that they describe events that did not happen in the TM/GZ case and a casual casual follower (ie., much of not most of America) of the case might think the scenarios do describe it, and also to my knowledge the scenarios also would not be covered under SYG laws, but he presents them is if they would be.

    His example of the woman clutching (1.00 / 1) (#49)
    by melamineinNY on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:19:30 PM EST
    her purse as he enters an elevator is exactly what I've done in response to people of all races and genders entering an elevator I'm on - to make sure they have room! Now I have to be sensitive to racial paranoia instead of space.

    Parent
    Clutching purses (1.00 / 1) (#72)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:42:37 PM EST
    Melamine, isn't that the truth! People have a right, perhaps even a duty, to try to protect myself. I keep an eye an any man or male teen coming too close to my car.

    I've gotten into the habit of always locking my door as soon as I get in my car. There are so many times when I want to say, "I'm crossing the street because I'm taking a shortcut home." or "I'm clutching my purse because the straps were about to slip off my shoulders. Please don't think I'm a racist."

     

    Parent

    You're missing the key point (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by obsessed on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:45:11 PM EST
    First, Obama is explaining that to African-Americans, this case is particularly horrifying, because "it could be me" applies to each of them, including him, and has applied their whole lives. Just as a male Senator doesn't understand - at a primal level - a woman's experience of the fear of rape, white lawyers don't understand - at a gut level - an African-American's ongoing experience of being racially profiled. Watch the comedy skit of Seinfeld and Chris Rock getting pulled over - it's funny because Rock's reactions are based on an underlying, scary, ugly truth.

    >"The rest of his remarks, on the topic of race, would be welcome following an incident involving racial profiling by police. In case he hasn't noticed, the practice is rampant in New York City."

    Is it rampant in NYC by armed, angry, NON-police who ignore real police when they tell them to stand down? The reaction to this case at this site shocks me to the core.


    And the distortons continue (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Darby on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:52:06 PM EST
    Apparently the assailant, Martin, was the angry one. And police never told  anybody to stand down. The truth is here of you want it.

    Parent
    Eugene Robinson's column (4.50 / 2) (#65)
    by MKS on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:37:55 PM EST
    today explains the other side of this quite well.  He covers a lot of ground in a few short, clear sentences.

    It is clear that the African American community, including those who watched the trial, view this case differently.

    Parent

    How do blacks ignore... (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by redwolf on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:54:15 PM EST
    Martin beating Zimmerman on the ground?  It's like that part of the case doesn't exist for the president and other who view everything through this racial lens.

    Parent
    Just say it isn't proven (5.00 / 3) (#94)
    by cboldt on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:03:28 PM EST
    Simple.  Just claim any alternative scenario as possible, and redirect responsibility for the outcome.  Or, the common one, "He shouldn't have gotten out of the car."

    And then there is the ever-popular ignorance of the evidence.

    Not that I had much to begin with, but I've lost all patience, good will, and benefit of the doubt toward the people who are vocal and reality impaired on this case.

    Parent

    Its really as simple as (3.00 / 2) (#102)
    by Semanticleo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:09:49 PM EST
    "He shouldn't have gotten out of the car."

    It's mystifying how few understand that nothing would have happened without his decision.

    Parent

    Its really as simle as (5.00 / 4) (#110)
    by cboldt on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:16:34 PM EST
    "He shouldn't have slugged Zimmerman in the face"

    It's mystifying how few understand that nothing would have happened without his decision.

    So, work on criminalizing getting out of the car, and legalizing beating the crap out of people.  I'll be first in line to beat the crap out of you after you suceed.

    Parent

    Is this the lawyer speaking (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Semanticleo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:33:11 PM EST
    or a vigilante?

    Parent
    After you change the law (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by cboldt on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:37:12 PM EST
    I'll stay within the law.  You work on criminalizing getting out of the car, and on making it legal to beat the crap out of people.  Only after you succeed in that does my offer to be first in line to beat the crap out of you hold up.

    If that isn't obvious hyperbole to you, and maybe it isn't ... actually, nevermind.  PLONK.

    Parent

    BUMP ! (none / 0) (#136)
    by Semanticleo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:40:26 PM EST
    Curious (2.67 / 3) (#122)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:30:01 PM EST
    if I follow you around on your way home, then you turn and confront me, can I shoot you as well, or does that only apply in this case?

    Parent
    No, you cannot (none / 0) (#139)
    by cboldt on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:43:39 PM EST
    But it does not surprise me that you don't grasp the "golden rule" principles of tort law and criminal law, as they reflect standards of good conduct that have been around for a centuries.

    And, you also clearly lack a grasp of the facts in this case.  There are plenty of other people to talk with on this board.  I'll leave you alone.

    Parent

    "golden rule" (3.50 / 2) (#144)
    by Semanticleo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:49:08 PM EST
    There's a Golden Rule?  You mean like 'Do unto others as you would to yourself"?

    Serves Trayvon right for bringing a brick to a gunfight.

    Parent

    The fight never happened. (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by ExcitableBoy on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:34:46 PM EST
    It's not even "the fight doesn't matter", it's really as if it never happened at all. I watched three straight hours of coverage on MSNBC the other day, and the altercation was never mentioned once.

    "He shouldn't have gotten out of his car". The end.

    Parent

    It's just as simple as saying (none / 0) (#111)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:17:00 PM EST
    that Rachel Jeantel shouldn't have suggested that GZ was a rapist out to get Trayvon and little Chad. In her interview with Piers Morgan, she said he didn't freak out until she told him that.

    Parent
    Can't you read?? (none / 0) (#114)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:18:24 PM EST
    Mr. Cbolt has  lost all patience, good will, and benefit of the doubt toward the people (he's talking about you, Mister!) who are vocal and reality impaired on this case.

    And, with a foot stamp....that's that!!

    lol


    Parent

    He who must be obeyed (none / 0) (#123)
    by Semanticleo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:30:58 PM EST
    has spoken

    Parent
    let us know (none / 0) (#157)
    by TeresaInPa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:06:22 PM EST
    when you get that law passed...the one making it against the law to get out of your car.

    Parent
    All I can say (none / 0) (#88)
    by MKS on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:58:20 PM EST
    is it would help to read Eugene Robinson's column to get the other side of this.

    Parent
    MKS, are you kidding? (5.00 / 2) (#171)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:32:37 PM EST
    The mainstream media has had unending columns from black columnists and reporters talking about their experiences with racism, in addition to whites calling GZ a racist monster. Is Robinson's column going to tell me something that has not been already discussed?

    Parent
    The defense attorney who (none / 0) (#31)
    by observed on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:48:55 PM EST
    suggested that had the races of the victim and defendant been reversed, with other facts unchanged, there would have been no charge, displayed the same obliviousness.

    Parent
    MOM suggested that (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:32:31 PM EST
    if GZ had been black, there would have been no charges because 1) there would have been no PR campaign on anti-racism and 2) the evidence has never been sufficient.

    Parent
    You can keep your blinders on (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by txantimedia on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:53:36 PM EST
    or you can open your eyes.  The choice is yours.  In the supposedly hyper-racist state of Florida, 44 blacks have claimed protection from the SYG law and 24 have been ruled justified.  10 Hispanics have used it, and 7 have been ruled justified.

    A black man about Zimmerman's age shot a white 17 year old male who was attempting to enter his house, and the shooting was found justified.  The parents of the dead child have complained that justice wasn't fair.  Sound familiar?

    A black Floridian shot an unarmed Hispanic teenager and the charges were dismissed in a SYG hearing.

    2695 blacks were killed in 2011.  2447 of those (90.6%) were killed by other blacks.  193 (7.2%) were killed by whites.  A black in America is 12.58 times more likely to be killed by another black than by a white.

    Given the identical facts of the Zimmerman case, I have no doubt in my mind that had Zimmerman been black and Martin white, the case never would have gone to court.  It would have been ruled a justified homicide, just as 24 other ones have been, and the shooter would have gone home a free man.

    Parent

    SYG had nothing... (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by unitron on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:35:56 PM EST
    ..to do with this case.

    This case had nothing to do with SYG.

    Parent

    I know that you have no doubts; however (none / 0) (#138)
    by observed on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:42:45 PM EST
    that wasn't the question, nor does citing the results of cases with different situations develop your argument much.
    In particular, it shows a very flexible mind to see that the GZ case is like one where a homeowner shoots a home invader.

    Parent
    Jeralyn, I've never understood this (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by txantimedia on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:48:58 PM EST
    The state argued Zimmerman's injuries weren't serious enough to warrant shooting Martin.

    Under the law you do not have to suffer any injury at all to act in self defense.  How can the prosecution get away with making this argument to a jury?  Are the rules that lax in a trial?  Or is what they did bordering on the unethical?

    I was also very troubled by John Guy's statement that shooting someone in the heart is evidence of a depraved mind.

    How can they get away with this?

    you do not have to have any injuries (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:39:44 PM EST
    to succeed on a self defense claim. The judge said so during the argument on jury instructions. The self-defense instruction contains no definition of great bodily harm. The state tried to get the judge to include the instruction contained in the aggravated battery statute (this was "the trick" West was referring to that led him to withdraw one of Zimmerman's available grounds for self defense.)

    In rejecting the state's argument, the Judge said:

    The instruction that you're seeking to have entered is -- says that "great bodily harm is distinguished from slight, trivial, minor or moderate harm, and as such, does not include mere bruises as are likely to be inflicted in a simple assault and battery." The testimony before the court, whether the jury chooses to believe it or not -- that's their purview -- is that you don't have to have any injury to be in fear to the extent of the justifiable use of deadly force.

    [Prosecutor] MANTEI: I agree with everything the court said.

    The testimony about no injuries being necessary came in through the state's own witness, Zimmerman's professor Carter. The state thought his testimony would show GZ lied to Sean Hannity about not knowing anything about self-defense. Instead, Carter ended up educating the jury on self-defense. Don West asked him how he would explain self-defense to his students -- here's part of his reply.

    CARTER: So the fact alone that there isn't an injury doesn't necessarily mean that the person did not have a reasonable apprehension of fear. The fact that there weren't injuries have a tendency to show or support that that person had a reasonable apprehension of fear, but the fact that there wasn't an injury doesn't necessarily mean there wasn't reasonable apprehension of fear.

    WEST: You don't have to wait until you are almost dead before you can defend yourself?

    CARTER: No, I would advise, you probably don't do that.

    WEST: And I take it when you are under attack, you never really know where that moment will be?

    CARTER: No, unfortunately, you don't. And then that's not even something from our, that's something that I think a lot of the students grasp, you know, I think we all, they have all probably had situations where, you know, a tussle maybe became more than a tussle, so things can change.



    Parent
    Might need to keep repeating that (none / 0) (#76)
    by jbindc on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:44:55 PM EST
    There are a few people around here who still don't understand that, even though it's been explained somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 times.

    Parent
    No, there aren't (5.00 / 3) (#131)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:35:16 PM EST
    Everyone understands that you needn't suffer any injuries for a fear of death/serious bodily harm to be reasonable.  If someone points a gun at you or charges at you with a knife, your fear - with no injury at all - would be reasonable.

    OTOH, "a few people around here" also realize that the severity or non-severity of injuries can serve to corroborate or disprove claims of the severity of a threat.

    Parent

    True EXCEPT in case of head injuries (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by vml68 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:40:12 PM EST
    OTOH, "a few people around here" also realize that the severity or non-severity of injuries can serve to corroborate or disprove claims of the severity of a threat.

    Head injuries are a whole different ball game.

    Parent

    Not really (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:52:21 PM EST
    If I shoot someone claiming they bashed my head dozens of times with a baseball bat and there's only a small mark on my head, that's evidence which tends to prove or disprove my claims.

    Parent
    Can we bounce your head... (1.00 / 1) (#176)
    by unitron on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:41:16 PM EST
    ...on the sidewalk to see how many times it takes until you lose count of how many times it's been, and see whether afterwards it seemed like more times to you than it actually was?

    Just in the interest of science, you understand.

    Parent

    Apparently (none / 0) (#150)
    by jbindc on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:55:26 PM EST
    Some of those people, even those with law degrees, don't understand that not only do you not have to have any injuries, the fact that two medical professionals who examined him said he possibly should have been concerned about his injuries and that, medically speaking, Zimmerman did what he had to do to survive.

    And the severity of injuries can only be calculated after the fact by Monday morning quarterbacks and bear little or no relation to what someone was feeling and experiencing at the time of an attack.  Maybe those people should try to understand that.

    Parent

    "Possibly should be concerned"?!? (none / 0) (#179)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:51:32 PM EST
    ... about his injuries?!?  What PA/doctor wouldn't tell him he should "possibly be concerned" about his injuries?  My doctor told me that when I strained my knee - and he was absolutely correct!

    Others with law degrees, OTOH, feel the need to misstate the evidence to bolster their arguments.  The latest example would be "two medical professionals who examined him said ... that, medically speaking, Zimmerman did what he had to do to survive."  I'm not sure about Zimmerman's paid expert said, but the PA who treated did not say he "did what he had to do to survive".  What she actually said was:

    O'Mara: "Medically speaking, would you say that whatever he did to stop the attack allowed him to survive it?"

    Folgate: "It could have, yes."

    Well, of course it could have.  Folgate has no idea what was actually going on in their confrontation, nor whether it would escalate or not.  Not to mention the fact that, unless something is factually impossible, it's always "possible".

    As far as the Monday morning quarterbacking, that's what everyone is doing ... including yourself.


    Parent

    Carter's Statement is Out of Context (none / 0) (#177)
    by Rjpjrca on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:43:57 PM EST
    That would clearly be true if someone were coming after you with a knife, but with an unarmed victim that would be a pretty hard sell. The fact is that there had to be injuries in order for Zimmerman's particular story as to why he feared for his life to make sense, so while injuries are not necessary to claim self defense they clearly were necessary to claim successfully in this case. And would seem to be necessary in most cases in which in the deceased is unarmed.

    If Zimmerman's story had been Martin said he was going to kick my ass and I pulled out my gun and shot him because I feared for my life, I am pretty sure he would have had a hard time proving that was self defense.

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#37)
    by Darby on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:53:52 PM EST
    Post trial in the media Corey made many false stateme ts regarding the law

    Parent
    The President's Comments (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by RickyJim on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:51:14 PM EST
    are just like Zimmerman getting out of the car:  Useless towards the goal, illogical, will cause him to receive a great deal of criticism.  Is it just me or does this President seem to have a desire more than his predecessors to make comments on what's in the media, even stuff that has next to nothing to do with his job?

    Maybe (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by chrisvee on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:57:59 PM EST
    he just wants to give something back to the country he loves by fostering understanding and empathy.

    Parent
    and racial animosity: assuming we (none / 0) (#91)
    by melamineinNY on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:01:42 PM EST
    "others" who saw justice served, are all racists at heart who are incapable of "understanding" and don't feel saddened nevertheless at a tragic loss of life.


    Parent
    I wonder if the president can understand (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by Towanda on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:51:44 PM EST
    what it's like to be a juror in such a case.  

    His comments about the jury's work underwhelm me, as a potential juror this week in a similar case.  

    Just enduring the voir dire was awful at times -- but it also was an education that I wonder whether the former Constitutional law teacher ever learned, and from experience that also "informs" and has impact in how I interpret his just-words.

    Were you (none / 0) (#90)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:00:02 PM EST
    a juror on that case where the old man shot his teenage neighbor's son?

    Parent
    I was in the jury pool (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by Towanda on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:17:19 PM EST
    for a loooong day of voir dire (which got unnecessarily nasty, singling out some of us for attacks that ought not have been allowed).  

    And, with the size of the jury pool, I was seated almost next to the mother, brother, ministers -- but as a potential juror could not, as I so wanted to do, offer condolences and comfort.

    In days since, watching the never-seen-before-here turns that the trial took, I also have felt so sad for them and for the jurors selected, whom I came to know, learning a lot about their lives, from the loooong day of voir dire, from our mutual misery in the jury assembly room and he!!ish hallways and more.  (The courthouse was opened too soon after a fire and was not ready for us, in an awful heat wave.)

    They finally are home.  They did a good job, the job that the jury is to do -- and in a town where, do remember, Jeffrey Dahmer was ruled sane.

    Parent

    Be a juror of a crime victim (none / 0) (#119)
    by lily on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:26:05 PM EST
    in Obama's America, George's victimization did not happen.

    My son, a victim of 4 violent crimes before the age of 17 heard parts of Obama's message, he was deeply disappointed.

    Obama just reinforced a deep cynicism about government.

    Parent

    I have been (none / 0) (#121)
    by Towanda on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:28:23 PM EST
    a crime victim, and I have been a juror in a criminal trial.  But where I live in these United States, under our Constitution, there is no such thing as "a juror of a crime victim."

    Parent
    edit, i hit the f key insted of r (none / 0) (#127)
    by lily on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:33:40 PM EST
    should have read a juror or crime victim

    Parent
    The President's concerns (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:54:05 PM EST
    and  his identification with those concerns are important for all Americans as are his personalized insights on racial disparities and the impact they may have on interpretations of the Zimmerman trial.

    However, it is curious that  the president, on another hand,  is considering  the appointment of NY police Commissioner Raymond Kelly (".. one of the best.") for a cabinet position (Sec. Homeland Security).   Kelly, has been an advocate for street stops that appear to affect, in largest measure, young minorities.  It took a NY Civil Liberties Union law suit to just obtain data on street stops in the early 200's following a City Council law that mandated their release.

    Curious Indeed! (none / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:02:24 PM EST
    I have to agree with Jeralyn, in that Obama appears to be using this tragedy to work in some of his agendas.

    He got me though. Captivated and shaking my head in agreement.. awesome..

    But you snapped me right back to reality with the fact that he wants Ray Kelly on board. Obama and Biden are tough on crime, and the disproportionate effect on minorities due to profiling and the poor because they are easy targets.. no big deal.  

    Parent

    Thank you (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by chrisvee on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:54:52 PM EST
    Martin didn't bring the gun so we don't get to hear his version of events since bullets beat concrete. Was he standing his ground?  Defending himself against deadly threat?

    Accepting the verdict is one thing.  These assumptions that we now know the truth of what happened are entirely another.  All we know is that a jury thought there was reasonable doubt that he was guilty.

    Not to nit-pic, but (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:44:39 PM EST
    "All we know is that a jury....." delivered a "not guilty' verdict.

    Parent
    Thanks (none / 0) (#81)
    by chrisvee on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:49:36 PM EST
    for the correction.  That is what I meant to say.

    Parent
    lol (none / 0) (#103)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:10:04 PM EST
    Pleasantly surprised you "got" my smart-as$ "correction."


    Parent
    Oh that's an underrated lesson in all of this (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:38:44 PM EST
    If you're a young black man in Florida you should carry a legally registered handgun as often as possible, if Martin had been armed he might still be alive- after all he established that he felt threatened and thus he was fully justified in drawing down on Zimmerman.

    Parent
    nope (none / 0) (#152)
    by TeresaInPa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:56:38 PM EST
    not unless Zimmerman was sitting on him, beating him in the face and head.

    Parent
    GZ Legal Case Response (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Cylinder on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:06:13 PM EST
    Zimmerman Defense Comments on President Obama's Remarks


    While we acknowledge and understand the racial context of this case, we challenge people to look closely and dispassionately at the facts. We believe those who look at the facts of the case without prejudice will see that it is a clear case of self-defense, and we are certain that those who take a closer look at the kind of person George Zimmerman is -- something we understand the Department of Justice is currently doing -- we are confident they will find a young man with a diverse ethnic and racial background who is not a racist, a man who is, in fact, sensitive to the complex racial history of our country.
    It takes courage to talk about race. It took courage for our President to address the Zimmerman Case and candidly discuss how and why people are upset by the verdict. We would like to stress that the verdict was reached fairly and justly and that it reflects the letter of the law and represents the law's proper application to the facts. While we acknowledge the racial context of the case, we hope that the President was not suggesting that this case fits a pattern of racial disparity, because we strongly contend that it does not.


    It was unnecessary for defense counsel to respond. (1.00 / 1) (#57)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:26:47 PM EST
    I really feel the same way about Obama's (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:48:34 PM EST
    comments.

    Parent
    Unnecessary? (none / 0) (#62)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:34:43 PM EST
    Do you mean that you think it was bad for America that defense responded? Or bad for the governments civil rights violation investigation? or Bad for the civil case?

    Why do think it was unnecessary?

    Parent

    It is not clear who wrote it (none / 0) (#71)
    by MKS on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:41:50 PM EST
    ZIMMERMAN DEFENSE COMMENTS... (none / 0) (#78)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:47:13 PM EST
    The title says Zimmerman Defense, no?

    This website is operated by Mark O'Mara PA on behalf of the George Zimmerman Legal Defense Fund.

    You mean, a paralegal could have written it, or West?

    Parent

    It doesn't say (none / 0) (#80)
    by MKS on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:48:58 PM EST
    Maybe those of you familiar with this site know for sure it comes from West or O'Mara.

    Could be from anyone associated with the Defense.

    Parent

    So? (none / 0) (#83)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:51:39 PM EST
    Was it represented in another way? Odd, no one mentions O'Mara, just defense..  Am I missing something?

    Parent
    It is not a big point (none / 0) (#84)
    by MKS on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:53:03 PM EST
    I just didn't see O'Mara's name on it...

    Parent
    How I feel about the Fulton/Martin tour (none / 0) (#153)
    by Darby on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:59:01 PM EST
    Nm

    Parent
    CNN (none / 0) (#50)
    by Darby on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:23:08 PM EST
    Omitted the last paragraph

    Parent
    I'm so glad the defense did this (none / 0) (#117)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:23:38 PM EST
    because the mainstream media has been so biased and inaccurate.

    Parent
    the complete response from OMara/West (none / 0) (#172)
    by lily on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:33:39 PM EST
    Zimmerman Defense comments on President Obama's remarks  July 19, 2013

    "We have listened to President Obama's comments about the verdict in the Zimmerman Case. People are focusing on this quote: "Trayvon Martin could've been me 35 years ago." To focus on this one line misses the nuances of the President's message, which includes comments about how African Americans view the Zimmerman Case in the context of the history of racial disparity in America.

    "For more than a year, we have been listening to the conversation about this case -- from voices on every side -- and we have become very sensitive to the racial context that surrounds this case. We acknowledge Mr. Obama's remarks regarding the frustration felt by some when viewed in context of our nation's history, which includes racial insensitivities spanning generations, and existing even today, including within our criminal justice system.

    "While we acknowledge and understand the racial context of this case, we challenge people to look closely and dispassionately at the facts. We believe those who look at the facts of the case without prejudice will see that it is a clear case of self-defense, and we are certain that those who take a closer look at the kind of person George Zimmerman is -- something we understand the Department of Justice is currently doing -- we are confident they will find a young man with with a diverse ethnic and racial background who is not a racist, a man who is, in fact, sensitive to the complex racial history of our country.

    "It takes courage to talk about race. It took courage for our President to address the Zimmerman Case and candidly discuss how and why people are upset by the verdict. We would like to stress that the verdict was reached fairly and justly and that it reflects the letter of the law and represents the law's proper application to the facts. While we acknowledge the racial context of the case, we hope that the President was not suggesting that this case fits a pattern of racial disparity, because we strongly contend that it does not.

    "This case has given the nation an opportunity to have a candid conversation about race. We would like to contribute to this discourse. Our President has clearly indicated he is willing to contribute to the discourse. As we begin this conversation, we want to say this: we cannot talk about race in sound bites. Before you cast an opinion about what the President said, be sure to listen to his comments in full. Before you judge George Zimmerman or disparage the verdict of the citizen jury, understand the facts in full. Agree not to listen to just what meets your predisposition, but to accept what exists.

    "Only in this way can we assure that the conversations we want to have, that we need to have, will be attended and listened to by those whose presence is necessary for a full discourse -- a discourse that can have positive consequences for our growth as a nation."

    Parent

    Perhaps (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Tuduro on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:24:50 PM EST
    Sure, that's possible. But it doesn't explain the timeline. It doesn't explain the debris field beginning near the T and that the confrontation began much closer to Zimmerman's truck than Brandi Green's condo. I'm open to all ideas. But we have to take into account the evidence at hand before inferring something. I'm not trying to make it simple, because it isn't. But what I'm trying to say is that what evidence was presented to the jury was enough for them to reach a reasonable conclusion.

    If you are open to speculation (none / 0) (#192)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 08:25:23 PM EST
    you will have to discuss it elsewhere. The trial is over. The state presented its best evidence. We have discussed every facet of the evidence for 16 months. We are not having more discussions on that, or hosting unsupported speculation.

    Parent
    Even if i agree with him here mostly... (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:56:41 PM EST
    ...about many aspects of race in this country, NOW is the time I'm supposed to search my soul? Really?  Many things have occurred during/because of this administration that could've been much less harmful had soul-searching happened prior to their unleashing.

    Jeralyn (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:02:26 PM EST
    your comments sound like someone justifying a police shooting, seriously, you in the past have shown more empathy for a mass-murdering white supremacist scumbag like McVeigh-- someone who literally no one outside of Stormfront can empathize with--, than you do here for a 17 kid who essentially acted like a lot of 17 year old boys do, despite the fact that both ended up dead.

    Jeralyn. Is. A. Defense. Lawyer. (none / 0) (#164)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:20:21 PM EST
    She presents arguments from a defense standpoint. Debate her arguments if you want, but don't expect her to say anything to benefit the state.

    I'm sure the great majority of us feel bad when lives are lost.

    Parent

    What the point of electing a black president... (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by redwolf on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:13:21 PM EST
    If he's only going to represent the interests of blacks?  DOJ open a case about the death threats towards the Zimmerman family?  How about Zimmerman's civil rights being violated by the over charging?

    He needs to represent the entire country not just his own ethic group.

    You might consider doing the same (none / 0) (#113)
    by magster on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:18:19 PM EST
    in your blog comments.

    Parent
    Talking about race is not helpful. (5.00 / 4) (#106)
    by woodchuck64 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:14:12 PM EST
    I'm gonna say it: talking about race is not helpful.  It's far more complex than skin color. The actual Zimmerman "group" and actual Trayvon Martin "group" are so utterly specific to culture, income, employment, education, age, geography, economy and race, that none of us can possibly gain an inkling of understanding by checking our skin color alone.

    In the Zimmerman case, race wasn't the issue, it was about a clash of coalitions.  At a guess, Zimmerman seems to belong to the defend-your-neighborhood coalition, tough on crime, strict law-abiding, proud of neighborhood, older, low-to-medium income, employed, all races have groups which share these traits.  At a guess, Martin seems to belong to a medium income, divorced family, substandard educational system with no criminal record but flirting with misdemeanors teen coalition, certainly all races have teenagers in groups like this one.  Then there's a third coalition of criminals/gangs, teen dropouts, unemployed, hard drugs, the ones vandalizing and robbing Zimmerman's neighborhood, and we certainly know that all races have groups like these.  Those are the real groups that faced off and it seems impossible for people to be identifying and taking sides so readily based on this level of complexity.

    Pretending that race says anything interesting about the Zimmerman case in the absence of culture, income, employment, education, age, geography, economy is a vain hope. Obama is nothing like Trayvon and the average white is nothing like Zimmerman.

    Talking about race makes it easier to split into angry groups based on skin color which then interpret the evidence so as to exonerate one's group.  It's time to not have a talk about race and instead talk about all the variables being not talked about.  Maybe then we won't take it personally.

    Martin's Right to Self Defense (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by rcade on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:26:39 PM EST
    The trial's over. Zimmerman was acquitted. As a liberal fan of Talkleft, I wish Jeralyn would just once look at the situation from Martin's perspective instead of repeating the shameless defense claim that he wasn't unarmed because he had weaponized concrete.

    Put yourself in Martin's shoes, based on the scenario exactly as Zimmerman described it in the Hannity interview. Pretend that's the 100% truth. An adult male has been behaving strangely and following him, first in his car and then on foot. It's dark and a heavy rain is falling, making these actions even more suspicious.

    He has traveled on foot away from the street to a place behind condos near his residence, and there's Zimmerman again. Martin confronts the man to find out why he's being followed and the man doesn't explain. He doesn't say four words that would defuse the situation: "I'm with neighborhood watch." Instead, the strange man quickly reaches for something in a waist pocket (he wants to call 911).

    At that point, does Martin have any way of knowing the man isn't reaching for a gun?

    If Martin believed Zimmerman was reaching for a gun instead of a phone, he had the right to strike Zimmerman in self defense. Running away would get him shot in the back.

    The scenario I've described only requires that you believe Zimmerman, and it provides a justifiable reason why Martin struck him. He was afraid of being shot.

    You Have to Factor In (none / 0) (#142)
    by RickyJim on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:47:47 PM EST
    John Good only heard "Help!" when he was outside.  There was no, "Get the cops while I restrain this guy!".  Martin showed no interest in ending the beating of Zimmerman even though the screams indicated that he won the fight.  If he was just interested in keeping the dazed Zimmerman down until the cops arrived, he could have kept his entire weight on him and grasped Zimmerman's wrists tight.

    Parent
    The Shot Was Seconds Later (none / 0) (#168)
    by rcade on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:24:42 PM EST
    The fight ended seconds after Good stopped observing it. He went to call 911, and was connected right around the moment the shot went off.

    Zimmerman went from being helpless and straddled (his characterization) to being able to get out a gun and fire it expertly into Martin's heart in an extremely short period of time.

    There wasn't a lot of time for Martin to back off after Good left. But maybe Martin did, and that's how the weakling was able to get his gun. I know that's just conjecture, but the defense never offered an explanation for how Zimmerman got his gun if he was so completely outmatched in the fight.

    Parent

    Zimmerman Demonstrated How (none / 0) (#186)
    by RickyJim on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 08:11:10 PM EST
    during the reenactment, shown during the trial, and a long CVSA video which wasn't.  He was able to get his right side off the ground, pull the gun out of the holster, aim with the right hand while using the upper part of his right arm to pin Martin's arm (probably Martin's left but Zimmerman was not sure) to his own right side and shoot.  It all happened within seconds in the dark.  The prosecution claimed that was impossible based on a claim that Zimmerman told Mark Osterman that Martin's knees were at Zimmerman's arm pits.

    Parent
    No evidence supports this (none / 0) (#149)
    by Darby on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:55:12 PM EST
    However even if it did, Zimmerman was no under no obligation to allow the assault  to continue

    Parent
    Facts not in evidence (none / 0) (#159)
    by Semanticleo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:08:33 PM EST
    To be fair, this was politicized to an extraordinary degree.

     However I agree, too much credence has been given to the NON-crosss examined testimony of Zimmerman.  If there is a civil trial I think his being examined, under the close scrutiny of prevarication, will elicit many more facts not helpful to the defense.

    That is all

    Carry on.

    Parent

    Rcade, you're missing Jeantel's statement (none / 0) (#160)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:11:52 PM EST
    that TM was freaked out because she had suggested GM was a rapist.

    I agree that TM would have been justified in hitting GZ if he thought GZ was reaching for a gun. What doesn't make sense to me is why he would continue to hit GZ, instead of going for what he thought was the gun (GZ's cell phone).

    Parent

    Jeantel Said Martin Wasn't Freaked Out (none / 0) (#162)
    by rcade on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:16:54 PM EST
    She testified that when she told Martin the strange man might be a rapist, he told her (paraphrased), "Don't be playing me." That sounds as if he thought she was joking just to freak him out.

    Parent
    But that's not what she said to Piers Morgan (none / 0) (#173)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:34:16 PM EST
    Which of her accounts would you like me to believe?

    Parent
    That's an unfair comment (none / 0) (#175)
    by Semanticleo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:39:37 PM EST
    she was a reluctant witness.  As I recall, just about all the State's witnesses ended up being 'non-firendly'.

    Parent
    But she was under oath (5.00 / 2) (#189)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 08:15:03 PM EST
    at the trial and in her deposition. I understand she did everything she could to avoid talking to Sybrina Fulton and getting involved in this case. But if she goes on TV afterward and elaborates on her testimony, why should I conclude that her statement to Piers Morgan is untrue while her testimony was correct?

    Parent
    The more visible he is... (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by unitron on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 08:02:03 PM EST
    ...the more likely he is to suffer wrongful death.

    As for being sued civilly--

    1. He currently has no assets worth mentioning, so no deep pockets there like with an HOA's insurance company.

    2. Lots of stuff about Trayvon that didn't get introduced into evidence in the criminal trial will be fair game in a civil suit.


    Well done, Mr. President. Thank you for (4.92 / 12) (#17)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:11:11 PM EST
    your thoughtful words.

    Though GZ was not guilty beyond .... (4.69 / 13) (#9)
    by magster on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 03:43:54 PM EST
    ... a reasonable doubt, sounds like from reading this post that TM is 100% guilty, is not also entitled to a presumption of innocence, was absolutely 100% guilty of attempted murder and got what he deserved. Good riddance! Heck, it's even better that TM got a one person judge, jury and executioner because that's all he deserved.

    Maybe TM threw the first punch, maybe he layed in wait, but to claim absolutely that TM did these things and was going to kill GM as established fact is cr@p. Too bad he's not here to give his side of the story. None of us know what happened. I can accept GZ's acquittal. But I can't accept TM's "conviction" and death sentence on this site and elsewhere.  

    this part especially chaps my hide.... (5.00 / 7) (#11)
    by magster on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 03:52:01 PM EST
    Instead, he chose to confront and physically attack Zimmerman. He may have started his walk home from 7-11 as an innocent unarmed teen with a bag of Skittles, but along the way he used his hands and the cement as weapons.

    Is that beyond a reasonable doubt? No. Doesn't matter. See ya!!

    Parent

    Never (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by chrisvee on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:37:10 PM EST
    I get over this concept that Martin weaponized concrete.  

    It's just insulting.

    Parent

    Stand still while I (2.00 / 1) (#25)
    by txantimedia on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:41:00 PM EST
    pound your head with a chunk of concrete.  You might actually change your mind.

    Parent
    Make sure you do it gently (5.00 / 6) (#51)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:23:12 PM EST
    So it only leaves two, tiny cuts that don't require any stitches ... or a bandaid.

    Parent
    Unless you do a cat scan (1.00 / 1) (#95)
    by txantimedia on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:03:34 PM EST
    you have no idea what kind of internal damage may have been done to his brain.  And again, under the law, he doesn't have to suffer any injuries at all to be justified in shooting.

    You can whine and complain all you want about how his injuries weren't all that bad, how he really wasn't threatened, etc., etc., blah, blah, blah.  The fact is, he acted lawfully.  Period.

    This is a law blog.  Go to Kos or Democratic Underground if you want to whine about how he wasn't really injured.

    Parent

    You're missing the point, which is that (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by observed on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:25:46 PM EST
    the light nature of Zimmerman's injuries doesn't seem to support  the idea that his head was hit multiple times with eyes rolling "weaponized concrete".


    Parent
    The experts disagree with you (none / 0) (#165)
    by Darby on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:23:44 PM EST
    Just looking at the bruising,swelling and injuries on his head, coupled with the broken nose, I know I would have been terrified for my life.
    You can hear the terror in the screams for help.

    Parent
    I got jumped (none / 0) (#145)
    by ExcitableBoy on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:49:46 PM EST
    and had my head pounded on cement.
    It hurt. Really. Really. Really. Really. Hurt.
    It was scary. Really. Really. Really Really. Scary.

    I can't remember if it bled much, I don't think so. I remember the back of my head felt like jello for about a week. That's all. Make of it what you will.

    Parent

    My mother (none / 0) (#155)
    by ExcitableBoy on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:01:12 PM EST
    bawled her eyes out. My sister wanted to organize a posse to go get the kids. My brother laughed, and said the kid woulda beat my brains in, if I had any. Gotta love family.

    Parent
    What happened? (none / 0) (#161)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:15:51 PM EST
    Did you get any medical help?

    Parent
    I gotta hand it to the defense for creating that (5.00 / 6) (#59)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:29:09 PM EST
    Chunk-of-concrete-wielding image. May have won them the case, despite its pure distortion of the facts.

    Parent
    I rate it up there with the (none / 0) (#92)
    by Semanticleo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:01:43 PM EST
    OJ gloves.  Brilliant imagery.

    Parent
    OJ was innocent (none / 0) (#107)
    by txantimedia on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:15:04 PM EST
    Leave him out of this.

    Parent
    Because (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by chrisvee on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:44:43 PM EST
    that's what happened, right? He had it hidden in his hoodie?

    Of course he could always have weaponized a tree trunk too.

    Parent

    Indeed, he could have. But the concrete (none / 0) (#108)
    by melamineinNY on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:15:08 PM EST
    sidewalk under Zimmerman's head was more convenient, even if it was an accident of fate that it happened to be there. In a sense, it became a "found" weapon.

    Parent
    Until GZ quite handily wriggled away from (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:56:32 PM EST
    it and got on the grass. Despite O'Mara's attempt to say that a head that everyone could see in court is a normal oval shaped head is actually shaped like a perfect sphere and therefore must have been struck more than once on concrete to get two cuts....call me unconvinced that TM used the 'chunk of concrete' as an effective weapon.

    Parent
    But law enforcement officers (none / 0) (#191)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 08:23:55 PM EST
    testified that both concrete can be considered a weapon, under certain circumstances. The fists of trained fighters like boxers can be considered deadly weapons. A quick Internet search found that Massachusetts case law recognizes a dog as a deadly weapon. Even penises have been considered a deadly weapon!

    Parent
    Ofcourse (none / 0) (#194)
    by Politalkix on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 08:30:26 PM EST
    Zimmermann could have also bumped his head in concrete as a child and the extent of the damages to his head or his morbid fear of concrete would never be known unless he encountered a teenager wearing a hoodie. However, that was not an argument that the defense legal team made. Snark.

    Parent
    I hear you (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by standingup on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:55:48 PM EST
    From someone who so diligently deletes "comments that misstated the evidence presented at trial and portrayed them as facts," we get the following:
    By the President comparing himself to Martin 35 years ago, is he saying he would have responded as Martin did, and physically attacked someone for following him?...It is illegal to physically assault another person who has not threatened him with the imminent use of force.
    There is zero evidence, presented at trial or elsewhere, to prove Martin attacked Zimmerman because Zimmerman followed him. No one knows why Martin decided he should use physical force and we will never know for certain. The jury was able to reach a decision but the verdict does not provide a full accounting of what occurred that evening.

    Parent
    yes (none / 0) (#128)
    by TeresaInPa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:34:15 PM EST
    absolutely beyond a reasonable doubt.  Evidence and witnesses say so. That is why the jury results were what they were.

    Parent
    Its actually kind of stunning (5.00 / 8) (#40)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:55:09 PM EST
    especially on a defense site to see the presumption of innocence fly right out the freaking window for the kid who got shot.

    Parent
    Did you watch the trial? (none / 0) (#89)
    by redwolf on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:59:47 PM EST
    An eye witness has Martin beating Zimmerman on the ground.  That with Zimmerman's own testimony and no witnesses/evidence contradicting their stories why would you believe otherwise?

    Parent
    On a defense site (none / 0) (#97)
    by txantimedia on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:05:55 PM EST
    the discussions are about the presumption of innocence for the defendant not the victim.

    Parent
    I have never understood (4.50 / 8) (#16)
    by observed on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:03:35 PM EST
    how people equate a "not guilty" verdict with a conclusion that we know with good certainty what happened in reference to a case. I disagree with the practice of using of a "not guilty" verdict to claim affirmation of one particular version of events.
    In the sense that we really don't know what happened that night, and we don't know who started the fight, or what words were exchanged---and we certainly do not know who threw the first punch: in that sense, Obama could have been Trayvon Martin, a black youth who aroused suspicion by being alone at night.
    Before you chastise me, or quote the jurors' words to me, read the comments here and elsewhere from George Zimmerman supporters about the case.
    Many will say "Damn right it's about race! A black youth with a record of this or that-- very suspicious"---and that's a very mild paraphrase, as you know. The racial profiling of TM may not have occurred that February night, but it sure as hell proliferated after his death.
    We do well not to blind ourselves to the actual racial aspects of the case, those involving certain segments of the media, and the hordes of small-minded racist followers of said media.

    Finally, in light of his own past statements, the word of his co-worker about his racism, and especially in view of the noxious effluvium of racism coming from his family, it is difficult for me to believe that GZ himself is not racist.

    Thank you, Observed (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:17:55 PM EST
    I have often stated, here, and elsewhere, that it is impossible for one person to "experience" another person's experience. You can imagine it, sympathize with it, and/or try to understand it. But, unless you actually live through the experience, you simply don't (can't) know what it's like.

    Whether the subject is racism, rape, or incarceration, unless you've actually experienced those phenomena, you can only discuss them through distorted, biased, and unrealistic lenses.

    Go spend a few nights in any one of our sadistic he!!-hole prisons (masquerading as "rehabilitation centers) and see if the all-too common, "Lock'm up and throw away the key," sentiment changes at all.

    I believe everyone, yes, that includes me, is a racist to one degree or another. That's just an anthropological fact. We are tribal animals. Animals, including, mammals of course, tend to favor others like themselves. That's just natural. Lions don't hang out with pelicans. And, historically, humans have been attracted to, or repelled by, those who look like themselves, or not; talk and act like themselves, or not; and worship, or not, like themselves.

    So, while I can't experience what it's like to wake up every day, go outside, and have a huge plurality, maybe a majority, of total strangers hate me for no reason whatsoever. No reason, that is, that makes any sense.

    Race is obviously a huge, complicated, and, seemingly,  intractable problem for our pluralistic, evolving democratic society to deal with. But, I think, maybe a good place to start would be for those posters who would fight to the death defending their, "I am not a racist, my best friend in second grade was black," to consider what pain Mrs. Martin must suffer when she hears her dead son mockingly referred to as "Saint Martin?" I don't need a degree in psychology to recognize such obvious racism, even as the dimwits who post such slurs claim they're just posting clever, humorous euphemisms.

    Or, as I've read here, we should just "get over it."

    Parent

    But shouldn't the Zimmerman family (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:13:51 PM EST
    also feel great pain when they hear horrible things said about GZ, not to mention the death threats? Non-Hispanic African Americans may not understand what difficulties mixed-race Hispanics face. In addition to African and Spanish heritage, the mother's side looks like it has indigenous "blood" as well -- at least, judging from the uncle. As a gay man, Robert Zimmerman Jr. must have felt discrimination and know about attacks on gays.

    Shouldn't people try to understand their pain in this continuing ordeal?

    At least Trayvon's family members can be together and comfort each other, and they can speak freely. GZ and his family have greater constraints because of death threats that authorities don't seem to be taking seriously.

    Parent

    You're absolutely right, Suzie (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:54:12 PM EST
    Your comments, and mine, are not mutually exclusive. Of course, the Zimmerman family is experiencing terrible pain; I wouldn't wish that on anyone. And, the brother's undoubtedly awful pain he's suffered by gay intolerance is probably the closest thing to what blacks experience daily. So, I have no disagreement with what you've stated, and I commend you for reminding us that we've still got a long way to go as a society.

    My only point was, in this one particular case, a mother lost her son in the most horrible way possible. And, it has nothing to do with who was right, or wrong, or anything else alleged in the trial. As a father of two, words cannot express the disgust I feel towards those who think it's o.k. to pile on to the unimaginable pain and grief this poor woman must be going through. That making sport of an awful tragedy by some morons is one thing; that it's so well tolerated is quite another.

    Parent

    Welcome to the Internet (none / 0) (#182)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 08:00:41 PM EST
    Pardon my joke. I couldn't resist, even though I'm sure you know the Internet well. The anonymity seems to free people up to say horrible things to all sorts of people in all sorts of situations. For example, people have defended those who say on Twitter they're going to kill someone. (I'm sure Jeralyn would defend them under the 1st Amendment.)

    NYShooter, I think your opinion is that Sybrina Fulton is suffering worse pain that Gladys Zimmerman, who has seen her son vilified and ridiculed in many more ways.

    My 4-year-old nephew was run over and killed in the street by a woman in a truck speeding on a rural road. His older (by only a couple of years) brothers and his grandmother rushed out to keep him from the road but didn't get to him in time. Then they helplessly watched him die. Did Trayvon die in the most horrible way possible? I think that's a matter of opinion.

    Another sister left her only beloved child for a moment on vacation and came back to see her 5-year-old floating face down in a motel pool. Forty years later, I'm sure she still feels guilt. Was this not horrible for her?

    In my cancer counseling, I've worked with a woman whose baby was diagnosed with a large cancerous tumor. The child, who is about 2 now, has gone through multiple surgeries and chemotherapy. She may still die.

    These mothers also have felt cruel comments, such as: "It's your fault for not watching your child better" and "What did you eat, drink or do to cause your baby to get this terrible cancer?"

    Parent

    The noxious effluvium can be found in (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by melamineinNY on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:45:33 PM EST
    abundance on both sides. Your remark about the Zimmermans is as good as any.

    Parent
    First Blow (none / 0) (#36)
    by ahsing on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:53:19 PM EST
    We may not have conclusive evidence who threw the first punch, but if we are gong with most likely scenario, it would have to be Martin. Zimmerman had some pounds on Martin, but Martin had not a bruise or scratch on him other than the gunshot wound, and a hand would more likely the result of striking than being struck. Was Martin so good a fighter that Zimmerman couldn't land one solid blow despite having first mover advantage? Theoretically possible, but the reverse scenario is more likely.

    Parent
    stop misstating the evidence (none / 0) (#190)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 08:20:37 PM EST
    The state hasn't challenged that Martin hit first and there's no evidence Zimmerman hit Martin or threatened to hit him. The state didn't even allege he did that. Witnesses observed his injuries and Martin on top of him during the struggle.

    A court of law has declared him not guilty. That's all it takes to be definitive. Your opinion or the public's disagreement is immaterial.

    He's not a punching bag. He's someone who was found not guilty after a trial.

    If we're going to have a discussion of racial profiling, lets do it in the context of who does the profiling: it starts with cops, not George Zimmerman.

    If you want to reduce the chances private citizens will make unfounded reports, stop the neighborhood watch programs set up with assistance form police that like Homeland Security, urge people to report activity they find suspicious.

    Parent

    I just do not understand your reaction (4.40 / 10) (#15)
    by caseyOR on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:00:01 PM EST
    to Obama's remarks, Jeralyn. He, a black man in America, was trying to explain why the African-American community has such a different response to this case than say, you do. What is your problem with that?

    Please tell me what in these remarks you find untrue?


    There are very few African-American men in this country who haven't had the experience of being followed when they were shopping in a department store. That includes me. And there are very few African-American men who haven't had the experience of walking across the street and hearing the locks click on the doors of cars. That happens to me, at least before I was a senator. There are very few African-Americans who haven't had the experience of getting on an elevator and a woman clutching her purse nervously and holding her breath until she had a chance to get off. That happens often. And you know, I don't want to exaggerate this, but those sets of experiences inform how the African-American community interprets what happened one night in Florida. And it's inescapable for people to bring those experiences to bear.The African-American community is also knowledgeable that there is a history of racial disparities in the application of our criminal laws, everything from the death penalty to enforcement of our drug laws. And that ends up having an impact in terms of how people interpret the case.

    I realize this is a criminal defense site, but does that orientation really blind you to the differences in the way blacks and whites experience life in the U.S. ?

    The stunning lack of compassion for the loss the Martin's have suffered, and trust me nothing George Zimmerman's parents experienced throughout this is anywhere as horrific as what Trayvon's parents are living with, is beyond my comprehension.

    Support for Zimmerman and compassion for Trayvon and his parents are not mutually exclusive responses to what happened. And so I am baffled by your seeming inability to hold both of those things in your heart and mind simultaneously.

    And that is all Obama is suggesting we do. Acknowledge that the legal system worked as it is designed to work, and acknowledge that people's different life experiences color their responses to that.

    Maybe this will help (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by txantimedia on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:39:47 PM EST
    you understand.
    The stunning lack of compassion for the loss the Martin's have suffered, and trust me nothing George Zimmerman's parents experienced throughout this is anywhere as horrific as what Trayvon's parents are living with, is beyond my comprehension.
    The Zimmerman family has been dealing with death threats and will continue to do so for years to come.  The worst experiences that modern day blacks have pale in comparison to the fear that at any moment your life could be gone and knowing that hundreds, perhaps even thousands of people are looking for you and want you dead.

    George Zimmerman has experienced the full weight of the State of Florida, the US DOJ, the President of the US and the media aligned against him for more than 17 months now and will continue to experience that for years to come.  His parents have had to watch helplessly as this occurs to him despite the fact that he acted lawfully.

    Perhaps you could understand how that might be at at least almost as horrific as losing a child?

    Parent

    No. In fact, I find it callous to (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by observed on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:44:29 PM EST
    even make the comparison.

    Parent
    My family has lost two children (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:40:48 PM EST
    Please don't assume whose pain is worse. I'll put a quick call in to my sisters, but I can guarantee that they learned to move on, while never forgetting their loss. They didn't have the advantage of the president praying for them, people all over the world supporting them or the money to take leave of their jobs to travel and get loving support. They couldn't afford lawyers who would demonize others.

    It would have been much worse if their kids had to move away and stay in hiding, while they and their child became hated across America and threatened with death.

    Until you've experienced what the Zs have, you can't compare whose pain is worse. In cancer counseling, one friend calls it "comparative painology" when people argue whether it's better to lose a loved one right away or have to watch them suffer for years.

    Parent

    Out of respect for your loss, I won't (5.00 / 3) (#140)
    by observed on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:45:08 PM EST
    belabor the point, but suffice to say I strongly disagree, and I think most people would rather have a live child than a dead one.

    Parent
    Very few people know what it's like (none / 0) (#187)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 08:11:32 PM EST
    to experience what the Zimmermans' have.

    Plus, they live with the idea that someone who hates GZ could kill him at any time, and they don't have the resources to protect him.

    Parent

    That's the only positive result. (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Semanticleo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:45:14 PM EST
    All those folks concerned that SYG or SD acquittal of Z will result in an Old West free-for-all are mistaken.

    Do you really think anyone with knowledge of this case won't think twice before getting out of the car?  This is a cautionary tale for any with even a modicum of common sense.

    Parent

    According to Obama staying in (3.67 / 3) (#163)
    by ding7777 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:17:32 PM EST
     the car and locking the doors would have been an insult to TM

    There are very few African American men who haven't had the experience of walking across the street and hearing the locks click on the doors of cars.


    Parent
    OMG! I agree with you! (none / 0) (#100)
    by txantimedia on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:07:02 PM EST
    Be still my heart.

    Parent
    Let's see (5.00 / 5) (#47)
    by DFLer on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:16:19 PM EST
    Death threats (obviously horrible) vs actual death

    Hmmmm.

    Parent

    You cannot compare one person's pain (none / 0) (#196)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 08:35:05 PM EST
    or oppression to another's. Again, to use my experience in the cancer world, medical professionals are working on ways to help people come to grips with terrible situations. That was part of the "death panels" that conservatives fought in the ACA.

    My argument is not about a live child vs. a dead child. My argument is that people cannot say which parents suffer more.

    Another example from the cancer world: A person with stage 1 breast cancer who has a high chance of being cured may feel just as   bad as someone with stage 4 pancreatic cancer.

    Parent

    So now GZ is even more scared than he was (5.00 / 4) (#52)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:24:14 PM EST
    when he felt the need to make an armed run to Target?

    Obviously death threats are out of line and I hope he is reporting them for evaluation as to seriousness. But I seriously doubt he is much more fearful than he ever was.

    Parent

    Modern day blacks? (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by standingup on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:07:38 PM EST
    Your comparison is disgusting and inflammatory. Here is some of the reality of what black families in the US deal with from a current CDC report on racial differences in life expectancy due to cause of death.
    Life expectancy for black males was 4.7 years lower than that of white males. This difference was due to higher death rates for black males for heart disease, homicide, cancer, stroke, and perinatal conditions.
    Even more discouraging numbers from an Inland Empire article on the CDC report:
    The majority of homicides involve youth and young adults between the ages of 10 and 24. In fact, it's the number one cause of death among black males in this age group. And despite making up just 13 percent of the population, the FBI reports that half of the homicide victims in 2011 were black.

    But now, this new CDC data illustrates just how striking those numbers are, dramatic enough to affect the overall life expectancy for all black men, across all ages. Even more reason, Gore says, that the medical community needs to intervene.



    Parent
    yes (none / 0) (#141)
    by TeresaInPa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:47:00 PM EST
    and the person most likely to shoot a young black male is another young black male.  They should stop doing that.

    Parent
    Stop? (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:07:02 PM EST
    And what should white people stop doing?

    Making racist comments for one..  

    and let's see...  robbing the world blind? Murdering people across the world in exponential numbers?

    For someone to make a comment about what it is like to live in a racist country is one thing, and a good thing, imo...  but for you to say that black people are the problem, is really disgusting.

    Parent

    I have shown plenty of compassion (none / 0) (#188)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 08:13:16 PM EST
    for the Martins (as opposed to their lawyers) and I have repeatedly exposed racial injustice in the criminal justice system on this site for the past 11 years. My problem is in his only being willing to talk about it by linking it to a man who was just found not guilty of a crime after a year of being called racist by the entire country.

    Obama could have at anytime within the past 5 years tried to pass meaningful reforms to reduce the disparity and arbitrary enforcement of our criminal laws. Crime has not been on his radar. Gun restrictions are on his radar.

    He didn't order his Justice Dept. to agree to reduce the crack cocaine guidelines from 100 times the powder guidelines to 1:1. They are still at 18:1. Where are his pardons of low level drug offenders doing long sentences and saddled with felony convictions, many of whom are minorities.

    It's great that he wants to address disparity now but very troubling he's doing it on the back of George Zimmerman.

    Juries are unpredictable. Had Zimmerman been convicted he'd be spending the rest of his life in jail. As it is, he'll live with a target on his back for years, and Obama just made that target wider.

    Parent

    What you quoted, Casey (none / 0) (#193)
    by Teresa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 08:27:31 PM EST
    To me, that was the best part of his speech. Explaining to people, who don't understand, why this issue matters to them.

    I wish there was a place and time to discuss those issues without it focusing on this case. Because they are real and they need to be fixed. We can only blame ourselves for not trying harder to fix them. (To those who aren't trying harder, I doubt most at TL don't try...I think they do and understand.)

    Parent

    I agree he is the penultimate political animal, (4.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Semanticleo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 03:20:04 PM EST
    but I think a lot of GZ supporters have a difficult time trying to live in black skin.  TM's parents are decent people and they were shocked at the verdict.  Is it possible for anyone who hasn't experienced blackness in America, to understand how that racial profile sees the world of non-black?  I'm not talking Jim Crow.  There are far more subtle ways to express it, and even though they might appear thin-skinned at times, the muscle-memory and attendant pain is very near the surface and eruptions occur.

    Stereotyping GZ supporters? (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Redbrow on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 03:32:28 PM EST
    The biggest supporters being his family who are of Afro-Peruvian decent? I think they have a good idea of what it is like.

    I think you have a difficult time trying to live in Hispanic skin, being maliciously prosecuted for a crime you did not commit, all the while having the most powerful individual person in the world inferring you are a racist.

    Parent

    Implying (none / 0) (#6)
    by Redbrow on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 03:33:51 PM EST
    The inferring is for us citizens.

    Parent
    Well, 'a lot' is a lot (none / 0) (#8)
    by Semanticleo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 03:41:15 PM EST
    but It doesn't have to be a quorum.  i descend from Irish roots here since the 18th century.  I don't experience racism because i've been assimilated. I have no accent and blend in to my surroundings.  Blacks can be culturally absorbed, but they are still easily identified and subsequently experience race bias, though subtle.  Very few people still decorate the warts of their predispositions, because ostensibly, it's not politically correct.  But to think it's not out there in these times, is just, well, uniformed.

    Parent
    I think I've figured you out (none / 0) (#26)
    by txantimedia on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:42:38 PM EST
    You just like to disagree to disagree.  You refuse to even consider that someone responding to you might actually have a point.

    Parent
    Pot meet kettle (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by sj on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:44:59 PM EST
    kettle (none / 0) (#146)
    by lousy1 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:51:01 PM EST
    meet back hole.

    Parent
    As a woman (none / 0) (#154)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:00:24 PM EST
    I don't blend in with men, and I know what it's like for people to make judgments about me and the "all-female jury" based on my gender. Of course, I know what it's like to feel threatened because of my gender.

    Obviously some (many?) blacks prejudge whites. You can argue that that's because of historic oppression or bias they've experienced from other whites. But it can hurt individual whites, just like bias can hurt individual blacks. White liberal friends have told me about how they've tried to instill anti-racism in their kids, only to have African-American kids treat them with anger or disdain without getting to know them.

    As a reporter, I covered public housing for a few years. Because part of my childhood was spent in a poor, predominantly black neighborhood, I felt OK in public housing, but some friendly black residents would warn me not to go onto certain streets that were considered dangerous to whites.

    Among liberals, there seems to be this idea that black criminals are colorblind and never think of race in how they choose or how they treat victims. I think we could have a more honest conversation if we acknowledged that there is suspicion and anger on both sides, born out of lived experiences.

    Parent

    Yes, it is (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by txantimedia on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 03:57:37 PM EST
    and I'll give you an example.

    One of my daughters dated a young black man for five years.  At one point I thought they would marry.  I would have been very proud to call him son, and he and I still spend time together even though both have moved on and married others and had children.

    We went on a trip one time, he and my daughter following in his car.  At one point he signaled that they needed to stop.  My daughter needed to use the restroom.

    We got off the highway and found our way to a small motel.  (This was in OK.)  They both got out, went in to the motel and then came back out immediately.  He walked over to my car and said, "There's a Confederate flag in there, and the clerk wasn't very friendly.  We'd like to find another place."

    We moved on and came to a pizza restaurant.  This time only he came out.  He said there was a Confederate flag in the pizza restaurant and asked if I would mind going in with him.  Of course I did.

    I have seen black friends being discriminated against and experienced first hand how it makes them feel.  (The emotions displayed depend on the individual.)

    I have since used that story to explain to white friends and acquaintances, some of whom don't understand what the big deal is about the flag, that, to at least this one black man, it represented danger, possibly life threatening danger.

    Then I would ask them, can you now understand why blacks were so offended by the Confederate flag on an official state building in South Carolina?

    Very few don't get it.  Many have thanked me for opening their eyes.

    So, no, you do not have to be black to understand what it's like to be black in America.  All you have to do is read Black Like Me to understand.  That and have an open mind - and some black friends.

    One of the greatest pleasures I've ever had was watching him hug my wife's racist stepmother goodbye on the front porch.  The look on her face was priceless.  He and I laughed about it for hours afterwards.  (I had egged him on, because I knew what to expect and thought it would a hoot to put her in that position.)

    Parent

    I have had similar experience (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Semanticleo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:20:04 PM EST
    but that's empathy, not identity and it doesn't qualify me for being in their skin.  

    Parent
    Bingo! n/t (none / 0) (#64)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:37:53 PM EST
    Seriously?? (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by indy in sc on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:25:09 PM EST
    So, no, you do not have to be black to understand what it's like to be black in America.  All you have to do is read Black Like Me to understand.  That and have an open mind - and some black friends.

    Is that all that is required to know what it is like to be black in America?  A little bit of reading?? I don't think even you believe that. Can I know what your life is like by reading about someone else's experience pretending to be you?

    You may have a better sense of it than some based on your experience with your daughter's ex, but please know that, while you may be able to empathize to an extent, you will never really know.

    Parent

    Listening helps (none / 0) (#73)
    by MKS on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:43:54 PM EST
    On Confederate flags and (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by ExcitableBoy on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:24:29 PM EST
    trying to understand other people's experiences: not a deep point, but I thought I'd pass it along. There was a news story about a college coed who wanted to fly the Confederate flag in her dorm window or wall or something, caused a stir. She said it wasn't racist, just emblematic of her love for the South, her home, etc. I could see her point but I'm from Boston, what do I know about the Confederate flag. So I asked a friend of mine, a black guy in his 50s from Kentucky, for his take. He said he's a proud Southern man, loves the South, but no self-respecting black person in their right mind would fly the Confederate flag, they know exactly what it stands for.

    Parent
    who says "GZ supporters" (1.00 / 1) (#115)
    by TeresaInPa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:22:02 PM EST
    whoever the hell you think they are, have an obligation to understand what it is to live in black skin?  Why is that burden on GZ?  Forget that there are, no doubt, black GZ supporters to begin with.  Way to stereotype bud.
    Seriously why the hell is this case about the sensibilities of African Americans?  What the hell did George Zimmerman do to deserve that fate?  He was defending his life as is his right as a human being in America.

    Parent
    Obama, the Hypocrite in Chief... (4.00 / 4) (#7)
    by Laura G on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 03:34:03 PM EST
    Obama commented that Trayvon Martin "could have been me"...as he continues to drone bomb the hell our of those brown people.

    Well, 35 years ago (none / 0) (#124)
    by scribe on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:31:20 PM EST
    Obama was a dope-smokin' high school baller who called out his dealer, not his mother, for thanks in his yearbook.

    Hoodies weren't in style back then, so he probably would have dressed differently.

    But I can see his reason for putting himself in Martin's shoes.

    Parent

    Thank you Jeralyn (4.00 / 1) (#55)
    by star on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:26:10 PM EST
    For articulating so well all the thoughts going through my mind since I heard my president talking this afternoon. I thought he was president of all of America..white , black, Asian what not..He could have had a candid conversation about race and plights of AA boys in the context of crisis of  violence in Chicago streets..that would have been powerful and meaningful. He did not need to insert himself into a local case,which went through due process.

    Welcome to the party. (none / 0) (#60)
    by Semanticleo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:32:19 PM EST
    I thought he was president of all of America

    So did his putative base.  

    Parent

    No, Mr. President (1.00 / 1) (#46)
    by PM on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:10:32 PM EST
    "Trayvon Martin could have been me."

    "This is historic." Al Sharpton just now on MSNBC. "The president identifies with Trayvon."

    As so it goes. Again.

    No, Mr. President. You were never involved physical fighting and sucker punches for sport.

    You are not Trayvon Martin.

    If Obama wanted to wax poetic (1.00 / 1) (#195)
    by TeresaInPa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 08:32:42 PM EST
    about the burden of being a black man, he should not have used George Zimmerman to do so.  But as usual he is an opportunist.  It's just what he does. He exploits race IMO.
    I would be sickened by someone coming here and using this case to make a big personal point about race relations and being black in America, NOT because it is not important or because I am not sympathetic, but because that should not be on the shoulders of George Zimmerman.
    So why would I think it okay for the President to do this?  I do not.  I think it is ignorant bully behavior, thoughtless and self serving and tone deaf.  He owes an apology to the Zimmerman family.
    I think he also owes the Martin family an apology for continuing to enable their self delusion and attempt to turn their son in to some sort of martyr.

    The double speak has become surreal (none / 0) (#3)
    by Redbrow on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 03:24:04 PM EST
    The prosecution, Martin's family and now the POTtUS all start by saying they have total faith in the justice system but clearly believe justice was not served. They all acknowledge this case was not about race but then go on to make it the biggest race issue in recent history.

    They made a mountain out of a mole hill and keep building onto it every day with full cooperation of the mainstream media.

    Why yes. Yes he is. (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 03:55:07 PM EST
    "By the President comparing himself to Martin 35 years ago, is he saying he would have responded as Martin did, by attacking someone for following him?"

    Obama is a always all about Obama. He is the absolute definition of a narcissist.

    And no non black can "understand" what it means to be black just as no non "cracker" hill billy can understand what it means to be a cracker hill billy. The best we can do is try and tolerate the other person's foibles and accept them as just that. A "person."

    I am 75 and I grew up in the rural south. My parents were sharecroppers and I had an up close and personal view of poverty and segregation. I couldn't go inside the house of the land owner but I could ring the door bell and stand on the front porch. Blacks had to go around to the back and wait in the yard.

    The distance between the two were vast and we still haven't quite closed it. But we have come a long long way.

    Factories and unions rescued my father and provided a path out of the fields for whites and blacks. The Navy rescued me and many blacks. Unfortunately the factories have gone and the path out of poverty is gone unless you can get an increasingly expensive education that may be useless in five years.

    Whatever Zimmerman is he is not a racist. I know. I have seen too many up close to not recognize one.

    Obama, and others, use of this gives the true racists on both sides something to point to and rally around.

    What a shame. We waste time that could be spent on fixing problems while a cancer eats through our society.

    i had no idea you are 75! (none / 0) (#181)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 08:00:19 PM EST
    The first punch (none / 0) (#18)
    by Tuduro on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:14:48 PM EST
    Even if we were to assume that Trayvon was justified in throwing the first punch, it does not follow that Trayvon was justified in pursuing his assault by  mounting Zimmerman and pounding on him for at least 45 seconds. How much more did Zimmerman have to suffer before he was justified in defending himself? How close to death or unconsciousness did he have to be before resorting to deadly force? The timeline seems to show that Trayvon had ample time to make it home while Zimmerman was still talking to the non- emergency dispatcher. Even DeeDee suggests he made it home.  The debris trail shows that the initial confrontation took place at or near the T. It seems the jury could have reasonably inferred  that Trayvon either doubled back or remained hidden near the T.

    Ugh... (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by sj on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 04:29:25 PM EST
    ... and we're off...

    Parent
    You're Making Assumptions (none / 0) (#130)
    by rcade on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:35:03 PM EST
    The only witness who saw the fight with any clarity was John Good, who said he saw 8-10 seconds of it.

    He said Martin was on top straddling Zimmerman and was in a position where you could throw punches. But he did not see any punches being thrown because Martin's back was to him. I think he was even asked if Martin could have been grabbing Zimmerman instead by his shirt, and he said that was possible.

    The claim that Martin was "pounding on him for at least 45 seconds" is not supported by evidence. What took place during most of the fight -- which O'Mara said lasted 40 seconds -- is unknown.

    As for the debris, Martin's cell phone and Zimmerman's bigger flashlight were within five feet of where Martin's body ended up, 35-40 feet south of the T. If you assume that no teen would ever drop his phone on wet grass intentionally, that suggests the fight may have started far south of where Zimmerman told police it did.

    Parent

    Robert Zimmerman's (none / 0) (#63)
    by jbindc on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:37:46 PM EST
    response


    "You know, I think the American people wanted to hear from the president," Zimmerman said.

    "I think the president took his time with his remarks, and it was about time they heard from him. I know a lot of people were expecting to hear from the president, and I'm glad he spoke up today."

    SNIP


    Zimmerman praised Obama for suggesting that the Justice Department work with state and local law enforcement to "reduce the mistrust" toward police in the black community.

    "So I think that he made some good points about training law enforcement. He talked about a program that had worked," Zimmerman said.

    "You know, I think the president was speaking off the cuff, and I think he was very sincere in his remarks," Zimmerman said.



    Shut up, Robert! (none / 0) (#132)
    by melamineinNY on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:35:32 PM EST
    What (none / 0) (#69)
    by lousy1 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:41:06 PM EST
    Are you talking about?  Both RJ and the call from GZ to the SPD establishes  a two to four minute gap after TM lost Zimmerman.

    TM was on the phone with RJ. No gun was mentioned. He cam back and  back and engaged Zimmerman near Zimmerman's car.

    Why? Because Zimmerman had a gun?


    If someone pulls a gun... (none / 0) (#96)
    by redwolf on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:05:36 PM EST
    You'd better grab the gun rather than continuing to pound his head.  Your statement simple doesn't make sense.

    There won't be (none / 0) (#109)
    by txantimedia on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:16:24 PM EST
    an civil suits.  He's immune.  Under the law.

    That immunity part is yet to be (none / 0) (#184)
    by Teresa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 08:05:00 PM EST
    determined, unless I missed something.

    Parent
    For the umpteenth time (none / 0) (#116)
    by txantimedia on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:23:33 PM EST
    he can't be sued.  He's immune.  This is the law, not a debatable point.

    And for the umpteenth time ... (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 06:48:34 PM EST
    ... you are wrong.

    I don't know where you get your information, but you are misstating the law on a blog full of well-informed people, many of whom are lawyers.  

    Zimmerman is not immune from civil suits.

    If you really need proof, read several of the articles citing legal experts who have discussed this issue over the past couple of days.

    Parent

    Not immune for now, (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by AmericanPsycho on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:27:35 PM EST
    But he will be and O'Mara has made that pretty clear.

    Parent
    I Think the Basic Problem (none / 0) (#156)
    by RickyJim on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:05:39 PM EST
    that Jeralyn and others have with the President's attitude is that he does not think it important to address the problem of unfair prosecution of somebody for political aims.  Maybe he feels it just doesn't happen enough in the US to bother with.  But it more clearly happened in the Zimmerman case than racial profiling did.

    My Hunch (none / 0) (#166)
    by RickyJim on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:24:22 PM EST
    At least as likely as a suit by the parents against Zimmerman will be a suit by Zimmerman against Crump and the parents.  Another target is the State of Florida for malicious prosecution.  Besides the possibility of getting immunity, Zimmerman has the advantage of his defendants have much deeper pockets than he does.  Of course his lawyers will take the case on contingency.  

    The comment you are reply to was deleted (none / 0) (#197)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 08:37:31 PM EST
    for stating the author's legal analysis as fact.  Especially on a highly debatable issue. Besides the fact I disagree with the analysis, I am not willing to have it associated with TalkLeft.

    Lawyers or people who once were lawyers or who play lawyers on the internet need to state their opinions as their opinion. Otherwise readers give them too much weight and I don't want being sourced back to this site through search engines and repeated as something I wrote.

    The comment rules clearly state this.

    Parent

    Jeralyn (none / 0) (#169)
    by Rjpjrca on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:27:24 PM EST
    Unless you chastised Clinton for failing to show empathy for OJ Simpson your anger at his failure to do so for Zimmerman is quite rich. If you did and I just didn't know then good for you for being so consistent, but otherwise your comments just continue to show your lack of empathy for experience of African Americans in this country. What makes for a proper verdict or jury instruction has little relation to what makes for the proper lens of viewing complex issues of race, fear, and violence in our society. I keep appealing for a bit of humility from all parties. That humility requires a respect for the verdict that our system's rules required, which I see the President providing. To demand empathy for a man's whose choices while not legally punishable none the less played a hugely significant role in this tragedy is exactly the kind of lack of humility that is the problem.

    Also it is not a fact that George Zimmerman had no avenue of retreat at the moment he pulled the trigger. That may be true, but it may not be. Testimony established that Martin was on top of Zimmerman at some point, but no one can verify that was still the case when the shot was fired. There is time between when witnesses saw Martin on top of Zimmerman and when the shot was fired in which the situation could have changed. If there is no way to say who was screaming, there is also no way to say if Zimmerman had no avenue of retreat so you stating it as a fact is biased and misleading to say the least. I would agree that is the conclusion that the evidence presented at the trial would point to, but that is more a reflection of incompetence on the part of the prosecution than anything else. They presented no theory of the case and as far as I can tell never explicitly made the point that witnesses seeing Martin on top of Zimmerman is not proof that was still the situation when the shot was fired. Furthermore, it is also impossible to know who started the altercation because there are witnesses to that either. You claim there is no evidence that Zimmerman tried to restrain Martin- what pray tell would even constitute such evidence. You are now assuming that Zimmerman was simply letting Martin get away which while possible, can't be proved clearly either. And certainly seems to contradict his words on the call and actions during it. Given all of that uncertainty for you to claim this is a CLEAR case of self defense is an staggering. There is nothing clear about what happened. To try to prove that point let me propose a hypothetical- say that police has arrived earlier to break up the fight and Trayvon Martin was charged with assaulting Zimmerman, and as his defense Martin invoked Stand Your Ground saying Zimmerman initiated the altercation by trying to restrain him. Would there be sufficient evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Martin did not act in self defense? Given Zimmerman's phone call to the police and the fact that there were no witnesses to the beginning of the confrontation I think the clear answer is that there would not be. On top of that given that all the prior stuff about Zimmerman would probably have been admissible if he were not the defendant it would be even more difficult.

    Finally, let me respond to a few of your points specifically about Obama:

    "Obama said if Martin had been white the result would probably have been different. Not once did he acknowledge that if Trayvon Martin had not attacked George Zimmerman, the outcome might have been different."

    First of all it is not a fact that Trayvon Martin "attacked Zimmerman", he may have acted to defend himself, no one knows that because no one witnessed the fight start. It is a fact that Trayvon Martin is black and not white. So hypothesizing about that is quite different.

    "As a former Constitutional law professor, I would expect our President to acknowledge that the purpose of a criminal trial is not to send messages to the American public. It is merely to test the Government's evidence: Did the state prove guilt and disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt."

    If Obama had said the jury should have decided the case differently you accusation here might hold water, but he didn't even make the point you are trying to criticize.  He makes clear his words are meant to try to explain how people have responded to the verdict, not in any way make a statement about the validity of the verdict itself.

    I haven't read any comments yet (none / 0) (#178)
    by Teresa on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 07:46:23 PM EST
    but I agree with Jeralyn, with one exception. I don't like SYG laws. IF there is an opportunity to retreat, I think the person should be obligated to take it before using deadly force.

    I don't know how, after the fact, that opportunity can be determined in all cases. But, if there is one, it should be taken.

    I think it was a great speech or comment by Pres. Obama about race had he left off the comments about Trayvon and GZ. I just don't think it applies to a traditional self-defense case.

    Because the comments were personal to this case, I think when/if the DOJ chooses not to charge him, there is now an obligation by the President to comment on the fact that GZ is not a racist. Specific comments because this was what he commented on.